One legendary Kent rock & roll story involved big name record label reps coming to Kent and Akron in 1978 to scout and sign new talent in the wake of DEVO's then recent success. The first I had ever heard of this was back in 2003 when Western Reserve PBS aired this excellent documentary detailing the stories of several local bands who got caught up in this wave. While this documentary did a really great job telling these stories I wanted to dig deeper. I had a lot of questions that this program did not answer. I wanted to know more specific details about the night in Kent when the band Tin Huey played a show at JB's Up that got them signed to Warner Brothers Records.
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| Clipping from Robert Christgau's lengthy Village Voice piece on the Kent and Akron music scene published on April 17, 1978. |
But who were these people specifically? And how did they end up coming to visit Kent? What did they do while they were here and what did they experience on those nights at JB's that led them to take a gamble on this group of musicians unknown outside of northeast Ohio.
The band Tin Huey who were the benefactors of this experience were an eclectic avant garde art band who at the time consisted of members Christopher Butler, Harvey Gold, Michael Aylward, Stuart Austin, Ralph Carney and Mark Price. Chris Butler would later find significant success with The Waitresses and Ralph Carney (uncle of Patrick Carney) would also later find success playing saxophone for a long stint with Tom Waits and contributing to recordings and performances with many other big name acts including The B-52's, St. Vincent and The Black Keys.
The linchpin in this entire story is Chris Butler who had only been in Tin Huey for about six weeks when he sent renowned Village Voice music critic Robert Christgau a letter urging him to come to Ohio and check out our music scene up here in the northeast corner. When I asked Chris if I could interview him about these experiences he was more than happy to have me out to his studio in downtown Akron to talk to me about Tin Huey, those times and that roller coaster spring of 1978.
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Chris Butler and Jason Prufer in conversation about Tin Huey, Karin Berg, Robert Christgau and Jerry Wexler in Kent:
JP: Tell me about Tin Huey
Chris Butler: Tin Huey started as a trio called Rags in the early 70s with Michael Aylward on bass, Mark Price on guitar and Stewart Austin on drums – and then Harvey joined and they had a sax player named Lachlan McIntosh. His son Taylor McIntosh is our reed player. I have a tape of Tin Huey playing at the Town House in Kent from about 1973-1974 and on it they are playing Velvet Underground songs – they are like way ahead. Playing original stuff that is way out there and playing to like 3 ½ people. It might be in the basement of the Town House at The Deck. They are smug, they are elitist and they are brilliant.
I only began to encounter them when I was in The Numbers Band because we would be upstairs (at JB's) and they would be downstairs (at JB's) and vice versa and they had a regular gig and I just thought they were brilliant. Also they had Ralph Carney by then. Ralph Carney RIP – that was rough. It’s still rough.
I had a fanzine at the time called Blank and I wrote about them and how much I loved them. I was in The Numbers Band and then I got fired from The Numbers Band because I missed a rehearsal. You know the work ethic with those guys. I blew off a rehearsal for a photo session for the Stiff Records compilation. Ya know I was grumbling anyway because I worked real hard to sell the Jimmy Bell LP and I couldn’t get any traction. I was frustrated. So I started to write on my own and I hadn’t reached any kind of peak as a writer but I knew I could do this. Something that was a little bit of a bubble was happening for me. I was bitchy. I was in an “I hate the world” kind of phase. I couldn’t understand why nobody would recognize this wonderful band (numbers band) which is now hitting it’s 50th year. So I got fired and I said to myself “I’m done, no more goddamn bands for me.”
And then very quickly, within a month actually -- Ralph Carney told people that this Butler guy was another writer. Tin Huey wanted another writer which I thought was ridiculous because everyone in the band wrote. But I swore I was not gonna join another band.
JP: So we are talking about early 1978 right? Somewhere in there? So then how did you end up in Tin Huey and then how did this whole thing with the record companies begin?
Chris Butler: Yes. Mark Price had a rehearsal room/recording studio at his house here in Akron on Oakdale and I began going over there and hanging out and playing and I had a tune I was recording. I think they had tried recording tracks out there as well. Meanwhile I had written a letter to Robert Christgau the writer at the Village Voice. I had seen this great article that he wrote about the scene in London so I decided to write him a letter saying that we have this great scene here in NE Ohio. By then I had kind of reluctantly joined Tin Huey because really I thought they were just so amazing and I wasn’t even sure what my role was. To this day I still feel like the one guy too many in that band. They can do fine without me but they generously say “no”. I was a total auxiliary player: guitar, percussion – Tin Huey’s modus operandi was always throwing one more instrument on a song than was necessary.
So I sent this letter and I said “you really ought to come here, something's going on here” and I got a phone call. And he said “yeah ok.”
JP: So Robert Christgau called you and said “I will come to Akron”?
Chris Butler: Yeah – then ---- “SHIT!! OK!! WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO?” So I called Joe Bujack (JB) who owned and booked JB’s and I told him what was up and that this guy is coming to see the band and we need this night and he says to me “Chris – you need a date at my club? You gonna be like that fuck Joe Walsh who becomes a big rock & roll star who will never play my club again who is good for shit?” and then he says “alright alright, I’ll give you the date.”
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| Piece from the Daily Kent Stater published March 10, 1978 previewing the first of three showcase performances by Tin Huey at JB's noting the attendance of Village Voice writer Robert Chistgau. |
“Hey this is Robert Christgau I want to bring my friend Karin Berg from Warner Brothers out to see you guys and to see a show. We’re coming in two weeks.”
SHIT!!! OK!!! WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO? So I call Joe Bujack again “Joe this is Chris Butler again” Joe says “Chris fuck you, you want another date at my club? You gonna be like that fuck Joe Walsh who is never gonna come back and play my club? This gonna make you a big rock star so you can never come back and play my club?” – so he gives us a date. We make more posters, we get an opening band – Chi-Pig. I cobble together another PA system. We gotta make sure that place is packed. And that date was Saturday, April 1, 1978.
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| Daily Kent Stater blurb previewing the second of three showcase performances by Tin Huey at JB's set for April 1, 1978. This would be for the night that Karin Berg would attend. |
SHIT!!! OK!!! WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO? So once again I call Joe Bujack “hey it’s Chris Butler ---” and he says “oh you calling again this is three times now – you gonna be big rock stars like that fuck Joe Walsh who won’t play my club.” So he gives us now a third date which was Friday, April 21, 1978. Ok -- so we make and put up posters, find an opening band -- Chi Pig again, cobble together a PA -- you know the drill.
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| Daily Kent Stater piece following the second of three showcase performances by Tin Huey at JB's. This was published on April 7, 1978 -- two weeks before the final showcase performance. |
Remember – big record companies in those days -- Columbia was New York centered. Warner Brothers was Los Angeles and New York and what we didn’t know was that they were in competition. An internal competition between west coast Warner Brothers and east coast Warner Brothers. You may have heavyweights in New York but the decision and the main office and Mo Ostin and all the big producers like Ted Templeman and most of the bands that get signed, get signed out of Los Angeles. One of the things we didn’t know was that being one of Jerry’s kids didn’t exactly help us a whole hell of a lot.
In hindsight what we should have said to Jerry Wexler was “Mr. Wexler, I’ve only been in this band for 6 weeks, I don’t know what I am doing in here, we do not have our act together, we do not have a manager, we have not played other places, we have a great following here but it’s not enough, come see us in a year. Let us get better. That’s what Talking Heads did. Talking Heads told Sire, "thank you, we’re flattered, we’d love to do this – we’re not ready." They waited till they had their business organized. They waited till they had enough shows under their belt that they built up a following. They waited till they had two albums worth of material accumulated because they knew they couldn’t write. They knew if they were out promoting one record they couldn’t be writing another one. They did the smart thing. In my opinion that’s what Tin Huey should have done.
JP: Do you remember Jerry showing up and being in JB’s? What do you remember about that?
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| Seating area at JB's Up on the east side of the club showing the booths where Jerry Wexler would have been "holding court" on the night of April 21, 1978. |
JP: Do you remember seeing Wexler in the audience while you played.
Chris Butler: Well he would have been off to my left and I imagine I would have been too terrified to look. I don’t know what Jerry heard in us to want to sign us but he must have heard “I’m a Believer” and he must have heard “I Wanna Be Your Dog” and he saw an audience.
This was a scene that supported it’s bands. People weren't there that night because a famous person was there because most of that audience wouldn't have known who those people were anyway. But they supported the bands. We really needed everyone to come out and they did and that was wonderful. So hats off to the audience. There was genuine enthusiasm in that audience. I don’t think it was forced. We had become popular. There was a buzz about us.
JP: So then after this night what happens with the band?
Chris Butler: So then you get that panic. What do you do? Karin Berg became our liaison. We ended up with David Sonenberg being our attorney. Karin said we needed a manager and we said we didn’t have a manager and she said “do you have a good friend” and we said yeah Jim Kauffman is our good friend and then he became our manager.
JP: Did Jim do a good job?
Chris Butler: Jim did the best he could. Tin Huey should have waited a year. We could have had our shit more together. We could have played out in Detroit two or three times. We could have played several cities two or three times. We could have gotten the taste for playing to cold audiences. We could have gotten the taste for just building our own scene. I mean it’s all DIY.
Ya know I saw David Giffels the other night give a reading at the Akron Public Library and he made a quip – he said “well ya know this Akron -- nothing happens here so you have to make it happen.” Which is a void a DIY must fill. And we did that! We put on those shows. But it wasn’t enough. We should have done more. We thought we were ready. We were not ready – in my opinion. Harvey may feel different.
JP: So then you got signed? What happened next? Did you guys go out to Los Angeles?
Chris Butler: Well we eventually we went to LA but this was out of the New York office.
JP: So then what happened when you finally put out the record?
Chris Butler: Once they put out the record then it’s your job to do everything we should have done in that year. Go and play places. We got on a couple bad tours. Harvey will lament that we had a chance to go on tour with Roxy Music though you would have to talk with him about those details. We worked really really hard but we made some classic mistakes. Mistakes isn’t the right word -- we tried to become a rock band and Tin Huey was an art band and I am to blame for that and so is Harvey. We should have been a Flaming Lips or a Guided by Voices. We should have dug in and made a lot of music, played out a lot, found our own audience and made our own audience. This was not the kind of band to open for people. We should have done it all ourselves. We should have done the heavy lifting.
When you get a record contract all you did was get a job. You got hired. Because once you get it they then turn to you and they say “ok --- what are you gonna do?” A record company is a bank and that’s it. And yeah they did promote the album and they did this and they did that. I even had a friend from High School who worked at Warners and he was supportive – in a corporate executive kind of way. Which was – not very much.
Harvey will tell you that we had a chance to be on Saturday Night Live but Ted Templeman in LA had a protege, and Ted Templeman pulled strings and got that slot for Saturday Night Live and instead of putting Tin Huey in there he put the then unknown Rickie Lee Jones on.
JP: I’ve seen that performance on SNL.
Chris Butler: It’s killer – it made her.
JP: So that night it could have been Tin Huey?
Chris Butler: Yes
JP: So then eventually how did you get out of it or how did it end?
Chris Butler: Well obviously we didn’t do real well. The record company did the things they were supposed to do. Warner Brothers used to put out these “dollar records”. They were double albums where they were loss leaders. Remember, Warners was the Cadillac label. So they would do these loss leaders which were these samplers they would sell for a buck and they would feature everyone who they had on the label. And they put us on there. They put “Hump Day” on there and they put “I’m a Believer” on there. So they did what they were supposed to do but eventually it was like “ok you are gonna be dropped, we’re not gonna pick this up” so we said “but our contract says two records firm!” But the label didn’t want to do the next record and by that time we were already doing demos and we were committed to another album. In the end they dropped us but because we had a good lawyer they paid us $30,000 to get out of our contract.
We split that money and then we released “English Kids” as a single. Someone even wrote “finally the band gets dropped and then they come out with a commercial single” (laughs)
JP: The Waitresses show up 2 years later. That’s not that far off.
Chris Butler: Yeah The Waitresses show up in 1981 and Tin Huey was dropped in 1979. So for two years I didn’t know what I was doing and eventually I started The Waitresses.
Tin Huey actually had a good following in New York.
JP: Really?
Chris Butler: Oh yeah Tin Huey actually had a great following in New York.
JP: Where would you play in New York?
Chris Butler: Oh my god – biggest clubs. Hurrah, Irving Plaza – oh yeah we were the shit. We were regulars at those places. Tin Huey opened for Television in July 1978 at The Bottom Line – the last three shows before they broke up. I have a tape of it. It was a treat. Two shows a night over three nights. They were on it like no other band you’ve ever seen or heard because they didn’t give a damn anymore and they were just fantastic. But that was it because we hadn’t done that legwork. You’d think that would be it but it’s not enough. It’s not enough for a long term career.
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On the night Jerry Wexler came to Kent (Friday, April 21, 1978) Tin Huey were playing JB's Up and veteran band The Numbers Band were playing JB's Down. The two clubs at that time were literally right on top of each other with their two entrances next to each other on the street level of North Water Street. A few years ago I did a story about The Numbers Band and an encounter they had with the band Aerosmith when they showed up unexpectedly at JB's back in 1978. For that story I interviewed Robert Kidney who gave me some background on how that difficult era was for his band. During our interview Robert brought up that night that Jerry Wexler came to JB's. This (previously unpublished) excerpt is from that interview.
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| Daily Kent Stater ad showing the roster of performers at JB's Up and Down for the weekend of April 21, 1978. |
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JP: Do you remember knowing Jerry Wexler was going to show up?
Robert: Oh yeah I knew all about it. I knew Jerry Wexler was coming and I knew Karin Berg was coming. It was all over the place. Tin Huey was going to get signed. It was a setup. They were coming into town to hear Tin Huey and sign them.
JP: What do you remember about the night?
Robert: We were in the basement playing to nobody and they were upstairs playing to a full house. You have to remember, The Numbers Band was isolated at that time. We were our own entity and people were looking at us as being vulnerable because of the fire at the Kove and all these other things. At this time I was referred to as “the old man who plays the blues.” We were being run down because of the 'new wave.' It was over for us. And so that night before we played I’m standing in front of the door that goes down the stairs and into the basement because I’m waiting for Jerry Wexler. I’m standing there watching all these people filing in upstairs.
JP: So you wanted to catch Jerry Wexler --- you were on a little bit of a mission that night.
Robert: I was not on a little bit of a mission – that was the only reason to do anything. I was going to get Jerry Wexler to hear our band. That was my goal. I stood out there for 45 minutes. I was not going to miss him. Period. I saw an opportunity that I was not going to blow off. I had a band. I had a business. I wanted people to be successful. I wanted the band to be successful. Ya know I wasn’t against being successful, I was against being manipulated to be successful. This guy coined the term rhythm & blues. He signed Aretha Franklin. I thought “now here’s a motherfucker who would get our music. He would get it.”
And as I am standing up there, this guy comes walking in who I have known for several years and he doesn’t say anything to me – he didn’t say hello, he didn’t say how are you -- he just glared at me. And the feeling I got from him was “you are over” and then he walked in. And it was horrible because people were telling us we were over – everywhere. That’s all I was getting. From the club owner. From the club manager. We were over -- and then Jerry Wexler walks in.
JP: Where did he walk in from?
Robert: He walked in from off the street out of his limo. And he’s on the street and before he’s about to walk into the upstairs club I stopped him and shook his hand and I said to him “Mr. Wexler I have a band, The Numbers Band and you might like our take on rhythm & blues and we're playing downstairs. Would you come and see us for a little bit?” and he said he would --- and he never came downstairs.
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While interviewing Chris Butler he kept insisting that I talk to fellow Tin Huey bandmate Harvey Gold. Harvey is one of the professorial masterminds behind many local bands including The HiFi's, Half Cleveland and of course Tin Huey. When I got a hold of Harvey he had a lot to say about those times, being on a major label and of course those trio of shows at JB's in the spring of 1978.
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Jason Prufer and Harvey Gold in conversation about Tin Huey and those trio of shows at JB's in the spring of 1978.
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JP: Tell me about Tin Huey, what was it about, how did it form and how did you end up at JB’s?
Harvey Gold: Tin Huey was a band that came out of a conflagration from the very very early 1970s called Rags which was made up originally of Mark Price, Stewart Austin and Michael Aylward. At some point I joined on keyboards and Mark left and Michael, Stewart and I continued on as a kind of little acoustic band doing T. Rex tunes and Tim Buckley and god knows what else. Eventually we went electric and based on a reasonably drug inspired bit of nonsense we named the band Tin Huey. The three of us added a couple of different members into the band and ultimately settled into the Tin Huey that would be most appropriate to your timeline – it settled with Mark Price rejoining the band on bass, Michael Aylward, Stewart Austin and me. That was the four piece and then we had Ralph Carney join us. That was when he got out of High School and that would have been about 1974/1975.
The relationship with JB’s was very odd because Tin Huey was a geeky enough band doing ya know very extended versions of songs by Soft Machine, Faust, The Velvet Underground and our own stuff which was certainly equally eclectic -- really more esoteric – it was pretty strange stuff.
We ended up getting the gig at JB’s – there was a fellow – I should interrupt this narrative to say that some of my memories are real memories and some are memories that are sort of from hearing and taking part in rehash oral history for 40 years. We started playing JB’s --- my recollection is that there was a guy whose name was Mike Wabble who sort of ran the upstairs during the week for Joe (Bujack). I remember he was a little guy with dark hair and a little dark beard – very sweet guy. And it seemed to me that the reason he wanted Tin Huey to play upstairs while 15-60-75 was downstairs was because we had a saxophone player. And this guy who managed JB’s was a big Grover Washington Jr. fan. Now if you know the music of Grover Washington Jr. you know that in certain respects you couldn’t travel farther to find a band like Tin Huey. Grover Washington Jr is more of a straight forward kind of linear player – he’d play these soft beautiful pretty things and that’s fine it’s just that Tin Huey was like this really angular truly eclectic strange band. We had a sax player who would spend at least half his time squawking through a variety of instruments --- so other than the fact that we had a sax player we couldn’t have been a more different band than what the manager of JB’s could have wanted. My recollection is that we did three nights a week at JB’s for a number of months.
JP: So they liked you – or somebody liked you.
Harvey Gold: Well ya know I think upstairs during the week they never really were able to bring anybody in. Anybody who was really going to the bar was going downstairs to see The Numbers Band. So I think it was more like “well if you guys are willing to work for the door and you can build up a following or you can do whatever you do and you are willing to play for the night, then you are welcome to have a space to play.” Ya know we brought our own PA system. We brought everything in ourselves and just set up and played for three nights a week.
JP: So from the time that you started playing three nights a week till the night that Jerry Wexler walks in which starts I believe with Robert Christgau. How long is that. What is the time period?
Harvey Gold: Ya know I was having a problem figuring that out. I think it was a few months.
JP: So things must have started moving fast as soon as you were at JB’s?
Harvey Gold: Well no – here’s the thing. And I think credit really has to go where it’s due. We were playing – we had a little bit of a following. We absolutely did. At this point we had put out a single and an EP on Nick Nicholis's On Clone label. And I had put out my single experiments by this point. And I’ll explain what “this point” is in a second. And so we’d had some notoriety and some notes about us in the Village Voice and Creem and maybe Crawdaddy or Trouser Press. I’m not sure actually --- I’d have to look at the clippings. I didn’t pay too much attention to that when we were putting out our indie releases.
Locally – honestly as far as a following is concerned, I don’t have a recollection of getting more than 15-20 people into JB’s to see us play on any given night up to this point. And it was at this point that Chris Butler joined the band. Now the way this had worked was that while we (Tin Huey) was upstairs they (The Numbers Band) were downstairs. On occasion I would hear in the darkness coming off to my left by the front door and the stairs somebody yelling to me out of the dark “Harvey, Harvey Gold! Call your motha”. And that was Chris Butler heckling me. And I thought, that’s pretty funny. Chris also put out a record as The Waitresses around the same time we put out one of ours.
There were some conversations and there were some urgings from other people to have Chris join us. I don’t really remember the details of any of that. That’s a history that sort of went around me but ultimately we asked Chris to join the band and when he did, there was this interesting synergy that just sort of like blew up which was him and me getting kind of nuts about being really ambitious in terms of really solidifying what Tin Huey did. And it involved some of his material. When he joined we really ended up doing a crash course in getting the band to do some of his stuff which meant we were really really really practicing a lot. We were integrating his stuff with our stuff and it just had us on a really manic period where Chris and I were drinking gallons of coffee while we were writing songs and putting things together in a far more cohesive kind of set. So this was really where we were when we played that gig that Robert Christgau attended which was on Friday, March 10, 1978.
We started really theming our shows because we were really juicing him because we didn’t want anyone really important coming to our gigs to an empty room. So the first gig was called ‘Tin Huey devours The Waitresses’. We put posters up everywhere and we had a big full page poster on the back page of Chris’s then underground newspaper – we did whatever one did back in those pre-internet days to get as many people to show up as possible. We were probably plastering the KSU campus with all sorts of shit. And we ended up getting a lot of people coming in to those, what we will call, showcase gigs.
JP: What do you remember about that night with Robert Christgau in the audience?
Harvey Gold: I know that was the night we played with The Bizzaros. Ya know Robert came to Akron to work on his writing series “Big Noise from the Boonies” for the Village Voice. Robert had written about the Tin Huey stuff but that was only because of his relationship with Nick Nicholis of The Bizarros who had been sending him these singles. Also Chris Butler had been corresponding with him. I am not sure when and how and for how long but that was another connection he had with what was going on around here. But Robert came and I remember it was those two bands and we played. We did a pretty neat set.
JP: Did you meet Robert that night? What do you remember about that?
Harvey Gold: I remember that he said he really liked us. That’s about all I remember because I don’t believe that he made his declaration that night – although he might have. I’m not sure if I remember if it was that night or via phone call. The most important note was when he said "I don’t normally like stuff like this." We certainly weren’t able to define ourselves because we were so eclectic. He thought of us as being some sort of really interesting variation on being a prog band. Probably because we played a lot of chords and did time shifts – and it didn’t matter that we did it at 140 decibels. He said “ya know I have never done this before and as a journalist it’s strange to do it, but I really feel compelled to do this – I’m going to be telling my friend Karin Berg about you”. And then he explained that Karin was A&R at Warner Brothers Records and he told us that she’d probably want to check us out -- hear the music and see the show. So that’s when we started freaking out a little bit.
JP: Now Karin Berg was one of the most famous record execs ever right? She’s one of those types who plucks unknown artist out of obscurity and makes them stars. She was responsible for The Cars, Television and played a big roll in R.E.M.'s career.
Harvey Gold: Right before we had Chris join the band and all these events took place, we’d actually been having conversations based on the idea of moving to Europe. We were an interestingly strange band that was really eclectic that did not have a lot of pop in it. And because of the Canterbury scene in England a lot of these European bands that were at the very least making enough money to exist and have something of a career over in England and western Europe. We thought ya know --- we have a band, we’re dedicated to doing what we’re doing – we are committed. So we were definitely looking at moving over to Europe at least for a time and then this happened. This was kind of a big deal. I never had any pretensions that Tin Huey was going to be major label fodder.
JP: Right but if they are knocking at your door what are you supposed to do?
Harvey Gold: Well at that point you say "yes thank you – can I get you a cup of coffee?" It was a big deal. Even having Robert Christgau write this piece and like us. That was kind of a big deal for us too. Remember at that time --- we were so busy really as both musicians and as carnival barkers and just doing what we were doing. We all also were working real jobs. We also had to pay the rent. Because of all this there wasn’t a whole lot of time to think about what was going to happen down the line until this thing started happening. Ya know we did a lot of thinking on our feet and in some ways I am very pleased with how we handled things but – at the end of the day – we were just busy trying to get this band where we wanted to get it depending upon how much space was opened up in front of us.
JP: So really this takes us to Act 2 of this story. The Karin Berg night at JB’s. Take me from the Robert Christgau night to the Karin Berg night. This was the Friday, April 1st night. Tin Huey Day.
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| Daily Kent Stater ad showing the roster of performers for the weekend of April 1, 1978. |
JP: And there’s a video of that. And you think that’s the Karin Berg night or do you know that’s the Karin Berg night.
Harvey Gold: I think that’s the Karin Berg night. (note from me (Jason) the video below IS from that night and Karin Berg is in the audience))
JP: Yeah and again this is 40 years ago so I know that even the sharpest memories have faded since then. So I am glad to get whatever information I can on this.
Harvey Gold: Yeah and I can’t always speak to what my condition was while things were supposed to be printing to my synapses.
JP: I’m surprised anyone remembers anything to be honest.
Harvey Gold: Well ya know it’s an interesting thing and we do speak to that period of time and we talk about how we got out of it relatively unscathed. And there’s a delineation between having memories compressed so that they are on like microfiche so when somebody actually says “oh we did this” you are more than likely going to say “oh that’s right, I forgot.” You can tell me something happened 20 times and my only actual recollection of the event is you telling me that it happened 20 times.
At any rate the thing that was most notable about the Karin show is that we did our first set and then took a break and Karin, as I remember it, took Chris and me aside and said “do you guys have a lawyer?” I believe that was her opening volley. That’s how I remember it. And I said “no” and she responded with “I don’t normally end up recommending a lawyer -- an attorney to negotiate with us when we offer a band a record deal but I want you guys to come onto Warner Brothers and I know a really good lawyer who could represent you if you’d like” and that lawyer was David Sonenberg. And at that point I can’t even vaguely speak to how we emotionally reacted to that. But I do know that we were so mentally jacked up that we pretty much sucked during our second set. But fortunately we didn’t suck enough for her to withdraw the offers. So that was good.
Karin Berg was a very big deal and an amazing woman. She’s appeared in books written about the rock industry. She was also a mover and a shaker in the civil rights period. She was a very smart lady. She once told me that somebody once told her to go see this band that was kind of up and coming called Talking Heads and when she came back they said “what do you think, you gonna sign them?” and she said “no I don’t want to sign them.” and they said “are you crazy? Really?” and she said “No I think they are wonderful but at the moment I am working for Elektra Records and we have – it’s a small label and we have Television and I don’t think the label can handle both Television and Talking Heads at the same time and I don’t want to do them an injustice. So no I am not offering them a deal.” I thought wow – this lady is cool. She signed Dire Straits – she signed quite a few strong acts.
JP: So then take me to the Jerry Wexler night which would be Friday, April 21, 1978.
Harvey Gold: It didn’t seem to me that she didn’t want to sign us. It didn’t seem to me that she had to have Jerry there in order to sign us but maybe. Jerry had just become Vice President in charge of A & R for Warner Brothers in New York and she felt that he should come see us. So --- as I recall Jerry came and Michael Ostin came who is Mo Ostin’s son. Mo Ostin who was at the time president of Warner Brother Records. I think Jerry’s son Paul may or may not have come. But I could be wrong. It was probably just Jerry and Michael Ostin.
So anyway Jerry came to see us and that probably takes us to the night that you probably have some questions about. It seems to me that we are talking about increments of three weeks between each gig.
JP: Yeah that’s what Chris told me. So then after the Karin Berg night when is the next time that you hear about Jerry Wexler coming to a show?
Harvey Gold: So probably a couple days later Karin called and said she wanted Jerry to come and see a gig. So now all of a sudden we had to do another showcase gig with Jerry coming.
JP: So now take me to the night that Jerry comes to JB’s.
Harvey Gold: So then Jerry comes and my recollection of that is we still put together a show and there were a lot of people there and it went really well. I don’t know why but the thing that I thought was funny was that it seemed to me that the only compliment that Jerry gave us was that we were in tune and that he wasn’t used to hearing bands these days who actually are in tune. That I remember and then I thought --- ya know, I guess if that’s the only real compliment that I am going to get that night from him I’ll take it. (laughs) But I thought wow this is a guy really from a different generation. It was almost like somebody said – hey you guys are pretty good for a bunch of mop tops.
JP: When you shut your eyes and you look in your minds eye and you look at the visuals and the impressions from that night. What do you see? Do you see what he is wearing? Do you see him entering JB’s? Do you see where he is sitting?
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| Original poster for the final showcase performance by Tin Huey at JB's Up on April 21, 1978. |
Harvey Gold: I don’t see all that but I see us sitting down with Jerry at the table with Michael (Ostin) and probably Karin. Although I do know that Karin spent a fair amount of time hanging out with my wife Kay. So they might have been off talking at that point. The only thing I do remember thinking is how – they were nice enough guys and I believe it was that night that Jerry suggested --- he said “I’m not telling you that you have to do this, this is not a make or break thing but I would like you to consider the possibility of having my son Paul produce you.” I remember that happening and I don’t remember if it was that night or very shortly after. But that’s one of the big memories that I associate with Jerry. We didn’t know anything that Paul had done or not done we were still --- our mouths were still hanging open and we were hustling like crazy people to figure out what our next move was. We wanted to be savvy and we wanted to be smart in this industry because ya know for a bunch of snot nosed youngsters who do crazy shit, we really wanted to be able to be as smart as we could be. Tin Huey was a smart band. We played smart music – if there is such a thing. We never saw us as being a crowd pleasing dance band that’s for sure. Given the fact that most of our songs you couldn’t even dance to.
I also remember moving towards the front entrance (of JB’s) and I know that Jerry wanted all of us to get something to eat. He was hungry. And by all of us I think he meant Chris, me, my wife, Michael (Ostin), Karin and him. I don’t remember the rest of the band being invited because it was essentially Chris and I were sort of the business arm and the spokespeople for the band. And I remember --- it was initiated by Chris – and this meant enough that I also chimed in to try and be forceful about this to get him to go downstairs to go and hear The Numbers Band before he left. Because we thought – and Chris was more informed than I was on this because honestly other than hearing them from the top of the stairs occasionally I had never gone to see The Numbers Band. So I had never heard them plus I had never met Bob – I had heard so many stories about Bob that I was scared of him. Seriously I am not joking I was totally intimidated. But on breaks Dave Robinson, Michael Stacey and Jack would all come up and hang out. Not as often with Jack but I was acquainted with him and he did come up.
At any rate we both hit up Jerry and said “hey if you could just take a few minutes and go downstairs and check out The Numbers Band. They would be right in your wheelhouse” because he was an r&b guy. And he just wouldn’t fucking go downstairs. He didn’t say “ok let’s go downstairs for five minutes” and then he decided he didn’t like them -- he wanted to go eat. He was not interested in seeing another band that night despite the fact that we were absolutely advocating for them. That then over the years grew into such a fucking mythology.
Then after that we went and ate somewhere. I don’t remember eating. I don’t remember where we went and I don’t remember anything else from that night. I’m pretty sure we ate in Kent but I couldn’t tell you where.
JP: So then what came about with all this? You got signed and then what happened with the band?
Harvey Gold: So after that, Chris and I flew to New York. We borrowed money to give a retainer to our attorney David Sonenberg. David was Patti Smith’s lawyer and Meatloaf’s manager and he ultimately ended up having some notoriety for being the executive producer for that Muhammad Ali/James Brown Rumble in the Jungle movie that won the Academy Award. So Chris and I flew to New York just to hand the check to David and do whatever paperwork and have a little bit of a meeting and apparently Warners knew we were coming into town. They actually thought that we were potentially going to be meeting with other record labels. So then I actually got paged at the Pittsburgh airport while we were on a layover on our way to New York by Warner Brothers and my wife called and said that Warner Brothers had gotten a room for Chris and I to stay in at the Essex House on Central Park South. So we said “thank you – that’s really gonna beat us staying on our friend Ed’s floor.”
So then we check in there and we met with David about what we thought would be a good deal but then David thought we were crazy but accepted what we had to say because he wasn’t familiar with this big surge that was going on – Chris and I had talked to Gerry Casale and Mark Mothersbaugh about what the DEVO deal was and then of course we pared down our expectations – because we weren’t DEVO. But it kind of told us what ballpark we thought we might be able to be talking in. And so we came up with numbers that we thought were intelligent as far as being in a band and it was a good idea because David was saying “nobody is gonna give a band money like that” and then he went and he was a good lawyer and asked for more than we wanted and came in with what we wanted! So that was kind of neat and it was kind of good and bad.
We ended up having too rich of a contract when the record industry crashed right after the release of our first album. So that kind of got us out of the game. As it turned out we were too expensive to keep around. At another point I remember when we were on the road and Chris and I popped down to New York from Boston or someplace like that to pick up some cash --- and at one point Chris and I went to lunch at the Friars Club with Jerry Wexler which was really kind of cool. And we had lunch with him in the Milton Berle room. I just remember thinking “wow, how did we get in here?” And at some point one of us said “ya know you’ve got so many stories Jerry and you’ve got such a history behind you that somebody’s got to do a book on you.” And he reached down into his briefcase and pulled out a book that had a chapter on Jerry Wexler and showed it to us.
JP: So then looking back all these years later would you change anything? Do you think you played it well? Was it an incredible experience? Was it a disappointing experience? What do you make of this now 40 years later?
Harvey Gold: Oh I thought it was an incredible experience. Would I have changed anything? Yes. First of all if I could have changed anything – one of the things that we did was – when Chris and I tended to listen to our guts, we would bat 1000. And this one time --- I was really good friends with Ed Strait who at the time was working with EG Management. EG Management in New York managed Robert Fripp/King Crimson, Brian Eno and Roxy Music. And I think we had a chance and we really pushed --- there was an opportunity there before when we came out with our new album for us to go on the road with Roxy Music on their North American tour. And I think that would have been a perfect audience for – and as I look back though maybe not – but I think it would have been a more perfect audience for Tin Huey than just about any other audience at that time.
And both Karin and David talked us out of it. They said we first needed to go out on our own headlining club tour when the album comes out. And we thought – well they must know better but I think we should use that tour support to go out on the road with Roxy Music but ok... And to this day I regret that decision because I would have liked to have seen what would have happened and frankly I would have liked to have had that in my pocket of experiences. Even if it would have all gone to hell (laughs). That’s about it.
There are times when I look back at the album itself and I say – boy ya know we would have been better off saving the money and recording it here in Cleveland and producing it ourselves – although I don’t think Warner Brothers would have wanted us to self produce. And we ended up looking at a number of producers. And Paul actually said to me recently that halfway through the recording of that album that he wanted to quit because he had no idea what the hell to do with us. So I don’t know if another producer would have helped make the album a little bit more accessible – but ya know – those are things that you can always wonder about. Ya know we went through part of that period where we were really and truly just following our muse which really is a wonderful thing to do. You can do that when you are young and you are working in a record store and you can afford to do it.
JP: Any last thoughts on this?
Harvey Gold: Ya know it’s almost like it was scripted in a Hollywood story -- it was like a whirlwind. Ya know it was like you really were nothing, you changed the band around. You were Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland and you decided to put on a show and boom bang all of a sudden you’re in Hollywood.
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Some notes here at the end:
After Robert Christgau went back to New York City he wrote a lengthy piece that was published in the Village Voice on April 17, 1978 about what he encountered in the Kent and Akron area. You can see how that piece originally appeared in print right here or for much easier reading you can check out the digital version right here.
In Robert Christgau's piece you can see this photo of Tin Huey showing Harvey Gold and Ralph Carney and what look like Mark Price. That photo was taken at JB's the night of the middle show --- April 1, 1978.
Also I wrote a book about the history of music in Kent, Ohio called Small Town, Big Music: The Outsized Influence of Kent, Ohio on the History of Rock & Roll and you can purchase it through Amazon right here.
Don't miss my last piece published not too long ago about Black Keysmaster Dan Auerbach and his bluesplaying days on the unforgiving stages of Kent, Ohio.
Also I made a movie about the band Archie and the Bunkers and they are fucking awesome and you should watch it because they are so great. You can stream the film on YouTube right here.
I made another film --- and it's my first ever feature length movie and I think it's fucking great! It's about The Numbers Band. It is what I like to call a cinema verite rock film. Unfortunately it was supposed to premiere last week at the Cleveland Cinematheque but because of the Coronavirus pandemic it has been (for now) postponed to May 16. You can check out the trailer right here.
Big thanks to Christopher Butler, Harvey Gold, Dylan Tyler, Mike Aylward, Susan Aylward, Matthew Napier, Calvin Rydbom and Robert Kidney for their help and contributions to this piece.
